CATEGORIES
- NYC COVERAGE
- WEB STARTUPS
- WEB NEWS
- CONFERENCES
- WEB TECH JOBS
- VENTURE CAPITAL
- MICROSOFT
- INTERVIEWS
- ADVERTISING
- VIDEO
- ALL TOPICS
- ALL COMPANIES
CONTRIBUTORS
- ADRIAN CHAN
- ALICIA NAVARRO
- ALLEN STERN
- CORSIN CAMICHEL
- DRAMA 2.0
- DARREN HERMAN
- HANK WILLIAMS
- MARK DAVIS
- RICK TUROCZY
- SANFORD DICKERT
- SHANNON CLARK
- Comment on Breaking: Yankee Fan Tweets Boston Red Sox Fan by Curt Grymala
- Comment on USA Celebrates Its Independence; We All Celebrate Our Google Dependence by Allen Stern
- Comment on USA Celebrates Its Independence; We All Celebrate Our Google Dependence by Darren
- Comment on USA Celebrates Its Independence; We All Celebrate Our Google Dependence by Paul
Skype’s Outage Another Example of Why Current Mahalo is Doomed
As nearly everyone online knows by now, Skype is out of commission. It's down for the count. I was one of the first people to post about the Skype outage this morning, and since then, hundreds of others have as well. It's a hot topic on Google Hot Trends (#45), and I am seeing 500 people an hour from my first page Google result.
But where is the Mahalo page? The Mahalo Skype page has 3 headlines of which 2 are semi-outage related. Otherwise, searching for "Skype down" or "Skype outage" provides no result. Yet Google has indexed my page from 6AM and already shows it as one of the top pages.
Jason mentioned "curated pages" on his blog a couple of days ago. When I think of the word curated, the first thing that pops in my head is T-Rex at the museum. I think that's where Mahalo would do well and obviously Jason now sees where the opportunity is. It's in creating "How-To" pages which he pushes on Digg, Delicious and StumbleUpon. This is where the possibly riches are to be made, and Jason is smart to see it now and make the strategy change. While these pages still have some level of bias (and it appears to be getting better), this I believe is what will keep Mahalo afloat for a long time. Have the guides create pages that can't compete with Google because there is nothing to compete with. But the standard search terms, Mahalo can't compete with the machine on. And my mom might find this very beneficial.
Now, many of you might say that if he continues the How-to scenario, he is just rebuilding the old Yahoo. I believe there is one big difference, that is the social age we live in today. If Jason can get his pages on the front of Digg, Reddit, StumbleUpon and Netscape like he is doing today, then what else does he need? Alexa ranking stays up, traffic continues in, investors are happy. He is a smart cookie; I guess it comes from our Brooklyn training.
Check out our previous Mahalo coverage.
The how to pages look ok. That said, they aren’t content that would normally be stumble or digg worth. I mean…. just how many people are suddenly all excited to read there is a “how to learn japanese” page? It’s nice that exists on the web, but ordinarily why would it get dugg or stumbled?
They are being dugg and stumbled because Jason is begging for duggs and stumbles and his fans (many of whom may be Mahalo employees) are digging and stumbling.
Still, the, the “how tos” are vastly better than Mahalo as a search engine which ranges from, at best, mediocre results (when the curators actually put them together) to sidesplitting awful results (when they try to guess what you want to find, but can’t quite do it) to just delivering Google results.
Because the searches were so bad, the change in direction is probably a good idea.
That said, these pages would never be given any boost on a social network were it not for the fact that Jason himself has a following. Will the digging last?
Yes, I agree that human filtering can never beat machines for speed. I do, however, like the Mahalo idea as a search engine for my parents who would gladly trade such up to date results for easier to read/understand hand edited results.
Thanks for feedback… we’re building our news team right now.
1. Google has no skype is down information right now.
2. Third section down has an RSS feed pulling in information about Skype being down. We should probably pull this up to the second section.
3. We’re in month three right now and we *just* formed a news team that is *almost* getting 24 hour news coverage. We will be getting better and better at this.
Mahalo for the feedback…
best jason
Thanks for stopping by and commenting Jason. Google has results that people can do something with about Skype being down.
I would love to learn more about your news team. While your clan of news searchers can make a page for say Skype down, will they be able to keep it updated? I still think that (plus the bias issue) will be the unfortunate downfall of your product.
You do make a fair point, I need to continue to remember that this is an early product. I still remember my 1g iPod :)
dude…. you make things so dramatic with “downfall” and “doomed.” :-)
anyway… mahalo for the constant attention you’re giving Mahalo and you are right to be a skeptic of something as outlandish as Mahalo.com!
Frankly, “doomed” is a very simplistic way of looking at the world. Things are not that binary in our industry… things tend to do poorly, ok, good, or amazing. Things are not doomed in most cases, and certainly not when the CEO and their team are listening and responding to every piece of feedback they get.
When was the last time a product got as much feedback as Mahalo has? When was the last time that feedback was discussed in such detail? I think the answer would be never and never! I’m taking a wildly radical approach to product development with this: talk to everyone about everything all the time.
Anyway, in terms of bias we’ve got systems for that and I would suggest if you think that is our downfall that you show me three solid examples of bias at Mahalo. Just three… please. I don’t think you will be able to find one, and if you do we will fix them instantly.
That’s the flaw in the bias argument… first, we don’t have any major bias issues right now–if any at all! Second, we have message boards and transparency to deal with even the slightest bias concern.
In terms of keeping pages updated the Skyp SERP on Mahalo had the news via three headlines syndicated via RSS. So, the Skype news was on the Skype page at Mahalo. Is the Skyp outage that big news? If it happens again, or becomes a trend maybe. But every service goes down at some point… not sure this is as major a news story for folks outside the “techcrunch 100k.”
Mahalo again for the non-stop feedback!!! I love it!!!
best jason
What if there was a dedicated channel to searching on topics of the now? I like the idea of Mahalo - my mom can’t search either. We are bias but I think we are also pragmatic. Balance is the key and as long as the staff members don’t all cheer when President Bush steps down we will be able to trust their judgment.
I have done some work on social news and I have a model that could solve the this problem for Mahalo but its not ready yet.
All they really need is a team of reporters watching the tubes and reporting whats out there. Kinda what Netscape does with submitted content.
I am usually never dramatic in my titles, and don't believe I have been here either unlike others who do that daily (they shall remain nameless lol).
Your product gets feedback because, well honestly, you beg for it. Everywhere I go, times square, grand central, bowery, staten island, I see you asking for feedback about how to be a CEO or how to improve this or that. As for the product help, I think you do a good job asking for support and assistance and with your webulebrity status, people help - same as when say Kevin Rose asks for help - everyone runs because they can't wait to help a webulebrity.
Why should I continue to try to fix your product for you? I don't get it. I don't mind helping here or there like I do with everything I come across, but I believe I did that already. Your favorite libel-suit-to-come pointed out a good one yesterday. Pay me as a consultant and I will be glad to help you out.
Here is a simple example of bias with your weblogs inc. Look at your iphone page (http://www.mahalo.com/Iphone) - is engadget really worthy of being listed FIVE times including two times in your top 7.
As for Skype, Skype has millions of members and if you check the comments on my post, you will see that most are outside of your techcrunch 100k (whatever this is). Many people use Skype exclusively and so it is one of the companies that matter. Yes, you pulled in 3 headlines, is that your answer?
Mahalo for all the attention!
iPhone? That’s a real stretch… almost comical. I don’t see any bias on that page at all.
Engadget is mentioned a bunch, sure, but so are other blogs. Since Engadget is also in the top five on my Google results this makes sense: Google and Mahalo agree that Engadget is the top authority on gadgets. Engadget and Gizmodo were both started by the same guy, and Engadget is where that guy (Peter Rojas) still works. So, since Engadget is the most respected tech site out there I understand why it was put in there a bunch of times. We can’t hold it against Engadget that I used to work there…. that would be real bias!
Also, I have no input on SERPs by the way, and no one here has ever worked for Engadget… so, not sure how that is bias. Also, I have no stake in Engadget any more. Zero impact on my life if Engadget goes up or down (although I’m sure they will continue to do well!).
That being said, if there are sites that provide better information anyone is free to submit them and discuss that on the discussion page. Suggest a replacement link for each of the Engadget links that’s better and I’m sure they will switch them.
What’s great about this is that you’re really grasping to find something… I mean, if that’s the best bias you can come up with we’re in AMAZING shape!
In terms of hiring you to be a consultant while I appreciate the feedback I don’t think any of it has been so unique that we would pay for it. I mean, we’ve been dealing with the issues you point out for the six months before we even launched! Bias, scale, and updating the index are the really, really, obvious issues.
Also, you haven’t really talked about solutions… you just pointed out the obvious issues. So, if you want to get on the payroll you’ll have to do a lot better than that! :-)
Seriously, I think you’re great and I love the fact that you beat on us every three days… the more you point out the faults the quicker we can address them.
Mahalo for helping mahalo.com!
best j
Bias isn’t the main problem. The main problem is to entirely avoid bias, the requires selecting guides who don’t care (and often don’t know) about the topics for which the create search results.
In contrast, excellent results required selecting guides who do care and do know about the topics on which they work.
The result is, in so far as the pages are unbaised, they represent mediocre search results. In so far as they are excellent, they will be biased.
There are other problems with the service. Does it even claim to have disambiguation? Is that what I got when a search that correctly returns knitting results on google returns gay marriage on Mahalo?
I’m 48 years old. I’ve found using Mahalo side splittingly funny. My mother found it downright puzzling to see that searches for “tango” return “mango”.
Possibly, Jason can get this to work, but as a search engine that returns results the searchers finds relevant, it’s currently unimpressive.
I just finished a page on Kielbasa. I am not Polish, I have no particular fondness for Kielbasa. As a matter of fact, can’t stand it. Nevertheless I put my best finger forward and created what I think is a page that were one to search for Kielbasa they would find the needed information without having to look through hundreds of results as I did. I ran into numerous pages of supposed Kielbasa recipes only to be linked to pages full of advertisements.
Mahalo, in essence, is by-passing the middle man and going straight to the source. What could be biased about that?
As time passes Mahalo’s disambiguation situation will improve. For goodness sake, can you say ALPHA?
And….I will stand up and cheer when Bush is gone ;)
This is great Jason, I am enjoying it - looking forward to meeting you next month in person.
So in your mind Engadget warrants that number of links including 2 in the top 7? They must be that damn good. I didn't know Engadget was the most respected tech site!
What I think you miss is that your core audience doesn't understand submitting links and they won't do it. If you want some advice, change the title from Internet Zeitgeist, no one in your core knows what that is.
Sorry you think my advice is sub-par. Maybe someone else can provide you with better help since that's the only time you open your blog comments up :)
Lastly, while you may believe I beat you up every 3 days, it has been more than a month and I always include tips for improvement because I want everyone to succeed. Though I am considering another Mahalo post, but am resisting.
There are plenty of other sites I want to help (maybe they won't think my help is sub-par) and who don't have the resources and the checkbook you do. My goal with CN is to help as many Web ideas become as successful as possible.
It’s interesting to hear that you don’t even like keilbasa, yet you put together a set of “best” link pages for kelbasa.
I’m sure you did your level best to find pages with no ads. That’s not the point. The point is, how are we to know those recipe links are good. Have you cooked any of the recipes you linked?
Who knows, maybe you did ok. Or maybe not. Seems like you guessed based they might be good based on the absence of ads. Frankly, I’ll continue to test out my luck with Google. (I have never noticed recipe pages to be filled with ads. Maybe I’m not all that sensitive to them provided the recipes are free of charge and end up being tasty.)
As to my initial point: I have looked at pages where I have knowledge.
I do know crochet. I can tell you that the page on crochet is, at best, indifferent. Had a person who crochets put it together, they would have actually looked at the About.com pages they linked and checked the advice. The would have discovered it is poorly organized, and frankly, laughable. (In my opinion, this is typical of about.com pages discussing needle work. They also include quite a few ads.)
Tobe specific, any crochet page that you to an 8 blog page lesson on how to create a *chain* is ridiculous; one page would easily do the trick. That’s what the about.com page does. It is likely written that way to expose the blog surfer to the maximum number of ads while providing the minimum amount of information.
The better sites would show you how to work the chain and foundation row on one web page. Only lack of knowledge could cause someone to pick such a poor page for something that is so fundamental in both knitting and crochet.
Numerous other links are either dubious or poor. Some are fine. A person who crochets would also include links to the major crochet association in the US.
In short: that about.com crotchet page is not good.
The fact is, the human did no better than a search engine, and in some cases poorer. I suspect this sort of outcome is typical when the human knows little or nothing about the subject they curate for Mahalo.
Frankly, unless you tell me you cooked all those kielbasa recipes, I have little faith that the recipe links on those pages are tasty.
I do cook Kielbasa, my Husband loves it. I included sites with great recipes and are relatively spam and ad-free. http://www.mahalo.com/Kielbasa
I am not saying that Google isn’t a great search engine, it is. I use Google and several other search engines in putting together pages for Mahalo.
As for the crochet results page….Please recommend some links for that page! Mahalo welcomes suggestions! That is one of the best features of Mahalo. People, like you, who have a particular interest in such things are able to better the search results by suggesting links they know to be of great quality and provide useful information. You can make a difference.
My point about bias was tongue-in-cheek in my previous post. How could one be baiased about Kielbasa? It seemed to me that the post commenting on bias was picking ONE search results page and basing Mahalo’s interest on that.
Thank you for trying Mahalo! Please try again on other topics and please recommend links when you find that we’re lacking. Human interaction is what it’s all about.
I hope you have a great day :o)
Melinda
Melinda,
So…. to clarify, did you cook all the recipes and serve them to your husband? Or are you just saying he loves Keilbasa, but you didn’t cook the recipes in the links you posted but are jusg guessing they are good?
On the other issue: Why in the world should I spend my time recommending links for Mahalo’s pages? Frankly, I don’t see the fact that Mahalo has to rely on begging stray, unaffiliated people to donate time to give them for recommendations as a strength of Mahalo. I see that as a long term weakness of the concept.
If you want my link recommendations, you visit "http://money.bigbucksblogger.com/mahalo-pos-search-engine">my first review of mahalo’s crochet page.
For what it’s worth, I visit Mahalo regularly. I often find the results side splittingly funnny, particularly when disambiguation is involved. (So does my mother who is is 75 years old.)
I took a look at the Mahalo kielbasa search results. There are plenty of ads on those pages. I’d say there are more ads on those pages than on the typical search result page I find in the top search results on Google. I’ve placed screen shots and discussion at my blog.
I don’t necessarily mind ads, but if the purpose of Mahalo is to help searchers avoid the ads, Mahalo seems to fail.
Lucia: You’re saying Martha Stewart and Amazon are advertisements? They are not ads, we do not get paid for putting those in there, and they were picked based on merit.
No sure I understand how you can say “mahalo is full of ads,” unless you are saying Martha Stewart and Amazon’s sites are advertising.
They might be *commercial* sites, but they are not advertisements. Also, if you think there are better links, certainly suggest them. The concept of Mahalo is that we pick what we think are the best links and debate that with the public and the site owners.
I am not here to argue a point about Kielbasa, how ridiculous would that be? I merely made a comment referring to a post (not yours) about the bias on a particular Mahalo page. My post was very tongue-in-cheek, as mentioned earlier. You seem to be ever-so-slightly offended with me for some reason. I was not even adddressing your post. I was addressing the post about Mahalo being biased with the iPhone page. I am sorry to have offeneded you.
I am not begging you to suggest links. That is merely an option that is available were one to be inclined to do so. You seemed to take a particlar interest in that page and you seem to know alot about the topic. User recommendations are a great way for users to express what they feel would be a better result.
Anyway, thank you for visiting Mahalo on a regular basis, it’s nice of you to do so. I’m glad you and your Mother, at the very least, get a kick out of it! As they say, laughter is the best medicine ;)
I hope you’ve had a great day and I wish you a better one tomorrow.
Melinda
Jason,
You misunderstand me. I was not suggesting you were paid to post links to Martha Stewart or Amazon.com. Let me explain.
My impression is that Melinda was suggesting that the advantage to Mahalo search results is that the pages linked do not, themselves, contain ads. More specifically, she is claiming that Martha Stewart’s page and Amazon’s pages, which she linked, either do not contain ads, or contain relatively few ads.
Moreover, she was saying that linked pages not containing ads is one of the key advantage of Mahalo searches over Google searches. Evidently, she thinks that when a my mom visits the pages Mahalo links, my mom will not be bombarded with ads.
If she is not claiming that, then I apologize for misunderstanding her.
That said: I believed that was her claim. In my response, I was
suggesting that Melinda was entirely incorrect on that point: the links in Mahalo search results lead to pages that are riddled with ads.
In particular, the Martha Stewart page (#2 result on Melinda’s Kielbasa page) is chock-full of ads. When you look above the fold, that page contains absolutely positively nothing other than ads and navigation. There is zero content.
Jason, am I wrong? Have you looked at the page? Can you find a recipe?
If you, Jason, can find a recipe above the fold, please take a screen shot, and circle the recipe for me and post it. My eyesight is poor, and who knows? Maybe I missed it because I was so distracted by the ads?
As for the Amazon.com page: it is nothing but links to third party vendors of Kielbasa! Or am I wrong? Is the Amazon.com page something else?
(You didn’t defend your link to Epicurious, but for what it’s worth, I loved the ads that swooshed down as the page loaded. )
What does this mean for Mahalo? It means that a search engine user who wishes to avoid visiting results pages that contain ads would do best to avoid Mahalo and chose Google instead. By using Google, the visitor will be subjected to fewer ads (and find more yummy kielbasa recipes in less time.)
Mind you, I have no objection to ads. Neither do many people, including my mother. I am simply pointing out that contrary to Melinda’s claims, the ads appear on the pages Mahalo links.
Melinda:
I never thought your point in bringing up you kielbasa pages was to argue about kielbasa. I thought your intention was to use these pages to support your claim that the the pages that Mahalo links to are nearly ad free.
I apologize if my frank observation that the kielbasa pages are riddled with ads caused you to fear you may have offended me. Rest easy: I am not offended.
Jason: I thank you for encouraging me to suggest links for your search engine, Mahalo. As you can see, I am happy to discuss your search engine results here and at my blog. As I told Melinda, I suggested a splendid crochet link at my blog. I invite you to to visit my blog and find the suggested link. Afterwards, you and your team should feel free to debate including them all you wish!
Jus as Melinda wished me a good day, I hope you’ve both had great days and I wish you both even better tomorrow.
Good luck developing Mahalo!
I beg to differ with you Lucia. Here is the exact link that is on Mahalo.com for the recipe on MarthaStewart.com:
MarthaStewart
IDK, maybe you're using a different internet than I am.<—-Tongue-in-cheek again. That being said, if you were to reread my initial post you may find that I was addressing "bias", and trying (lightheartedly) to show the difference in pages, i.e. iPhone versus an innocuous Kielbasa. You cannot take one page and make a blanket statement about Mahalo being biased.
On a side note: I think it's great that your Mother can surf the internet. Mine is 73 and can't even grasp call-waiting. :o) Melinda
I don’t know how I did it, but the ending of my previous post didn’t show so here it is.
If you were to reread my initial post you may find that I was addressing bias and trying (lightheartedly) to show the difference in pages, i.e. iPhone versus an innocuous Kielbasa. You cannot take one page and make a blanket statement as to Mahalo being biased.
On a side note I think it’s great that your Mother can surf the net. Mine is 73 and can’t grasp call-waiting.
:o)
Melinda
About the Martha Page.
Yes Melinda. That is the exact same ad-riddled page I visited! I posted a screenshot at my blog. You can see the screen shot here
I circled the ads and explain them in the blog post.
I also point out that the recipe quality is about on the level one would find on a package of kielbasa– and included a shot of a recipe that appears on Eckrich kielbasa.
Now, since we are both looking at the same image of Martha Stewart’s “meritorious” page: could you circle any portion of recipe that appear above the fold?
(Or, if you think I am being picky, could you please explain why pages that force the visitor to scroll past ads to find a tiny snippet of content fit whatever Jason might mean by “meritorious”? )
On the Issue of Bias
I reread your first comment, which appears af immediately after my comment. Evidently, you think for some reason, your comment compels me to limit my observations about Mahalo’s flaws to accusations of bias. This is mysterious for several reasons.
First, I’m not sure why I must repeat what I said about biase in my comment which appears immediately above yours.
In that comment I said I don’t think bias is the main problem with Mahalo.
I said the problem was the Mahalo staff aren’t experts on their topics and the results suffer. Your comment appears to be responding to my criticism about the lack of expertise on the part of Mahalo staff. You responded by saying you don’t like kielbasa, andseemed to suggest that despite your lack of expertise with regard to kielbasa, you think you created great search results!
In the process, you said:
“I ran into numerous pages of supposed Kielbasa recipes only to be linked to pages full of advertisements.”
I was responding to that idea, which you introduced. (I also asked you if you’d tasted any of the kielbasa recipes you linked, but you have not answered that either.)
Evidently, my taking up your point about ads upsets you. I hadn’t anticipated that. I’m sorry to have ruffled your feathers.
However, now that we are on the subject of the ads, I will repeat: the Martha Stewart page that appears as the #2 results in Mahalo contains more ads than the second search results Google. This can be seen by comparing the two pages. (Both search engines returned Wikipedia for their first result.)
If you wish to keep responding to my response to your point about ads by saying either, a) “The results page is not biased.” and/ or b) “You, Lucia, must discuss bias, and only biase, because that’s the one and only topic that should be discussed”, I can’t stop you from saying that.
However, I will keep pointing out you are not addressing the issue of ad laden page. (With luck, Allen will enjoy the exchange.)
I do have some advice for you though: Had you wished to avoid the topic of the ad-laden Martha Stewart Kielbasa page, you should not have broached the subject of ad-laden kielbasa pages.
About our Moms
Thanks for sharing about your mom. Lucky for her recipes equal in quality to those on the Martha page you linked appear on Eckrich Kielbasa. Now she can learn to cook it without having to use Mahalo or Google. Better yet, she won’t have to learn how to use the scroll bar to scroll past the ads on Martha Stewart’s blog site!
BTW. Eckrich is the best! I know this because I went to high school with one of the Eckrich girls. So, you can be sure my opinion about Kielbasa is not biased in the least! :)
I personally think that there was to many people out in the blogosphere “covering” this skype outage. So one or two headlines in Mahalo is enough for me to know that skype is having issues.
My google reader was swamped with blog posts about this. But then again how is everyone in my Google Reader supposed to know that its been covered in another blog.
Maybe we need a “Smart” Reader that can skip blog posts that it thinks are redundant of something else we read about. This would have been useful when the iphone came out.
Apparently there is no getting through to you. Are you just here to try to get people to your blog? Now that would really be pathetic. I bet that’s exactly what it is! Mahalo is not biased. Martha Stewart can have as many ads on HER page as she wants. The recipe is there and even someone with as much time on their hands as you seem to have could make that simple recipe. Why are you so completely obsessed with Martha Stewart? Why are you obsessed with me? Get a grip. If you don’t like Martha Stewart or me then feel free to wallow in your hatred. I couldn’t possibly care less what you think of me, my Mother or Martha Stewart. The topic was BIAS. Get it? BIAS. I’ve made myself clear on at least three occasions that my post was about bias and was tongue-in-cheek. You’re completely and utterly either not understanding my post or you just have some agenda here, as mentioned previously. It is what it is. Anyone who goes to the the links provided they will see the pages are not riddled with ads. You can see that, right? Why are you trying to take a simple post about bias and turn it into something else? My post appeared below yours because I posted after you, ummm duh. Your posts were so uninteresting that I barely skimmed over them. If I had known you make this into WW3 then I certainly would have waited for someone else to post so as to not offend you. My feathers aren’t ruffled. I have five children so I am quite used to dealing with childlike behavior. Sometimes, as I think may be appropriate in this case, it’s better to ignore the attention seeking child. Maybe your Mother should have done that too, heck maybe she did it too much. Either way, Goodbye. Live well and eats lots and lots of that delicious Kielbasa!